Wednesday, November 28, 2012

Tsukuyomi vs CoCo

Alrighty, let's make good use of the request box~

Goddess of the Full Moon, Tsukuyomi, and Scarlet Witch, CoCo are both very powerful Vanguards, but betwen them, who's the strongest? Onwards as I compare the 2 Vanguards, the decks they reside in, and their effectiveness in order to find which really is the strongest Vanguard.

VGE BT02-007EN.jpg

So. What do these cards and their decks have to offer to the game?

Tsukuyomi is a first generation Ride Chain, and the most consistent one at that. This means that, ride for ride, you have far more consistency than other deck. This also means that you get to abuse a mechanic that just makes Oracle Think Tank so cool, Divination. Basically, it's stacking, but not cheating. I know right? Her skill can allow you to stack upwards 15 cards at the bottom of your deck in any order you choose, so with a bit of decision making, you can essentially turn those last 15 cards into huge rushes in the form of Double Triggers. In order to reach this stack faster, Tsukuyomi's deck will generally include many ways to Soul Charge the deck, draw more cards, cycle through them, and Tsukuyomi's own skill helps out. Speaking of which, her skill is probably one of the better draw engines Oracle Think Tank, heck, probably most of the game can look up to. For not only gaining 2 cards in raw advantage, she also cycles out any lackluster cards, essentially getting the best you could from that +2 move. As a requirement however, she needs 6 Soul to activate this skill. This means that even after you ride up successfully, you have to gain one more Soul to actually get the absolute best benefits from her...which isn't really hard. From Red Eyes forcing pressure, to Psychic Bird cycling your deck, to just flat out re-riding Tsukuyomi, it's very easy to start gaining the benefits of her skill.

Scarlet Witch, CoCo plays the beatdown route of Oracle Think Tank. Comboed with Little Witch, Lulu, CoCo can grab 3 draws out of the Grade 3 ride with the cost of 2 Counter-Blasts. Not only that, but on the pretty big chance that you draw something that helps with field development, that can easily lead to pretty big mid game pushes that can lead to a pretty big lead in damage or card advantage later on. Not only that, but you can also re-ride her for another +1 in raw advantage, equaling to as much as 4 cards more than a deck without a real advantage engine can normally reach. Throw in the rather lax demands on Counter-Blasting if you don't want to re-ride, and the deck does an especially good job at beating away with Meteo-Break Wizard.

So comparison time. First, a big one, consistency.

Tsukuyomi takes this one easily. Also considering she doesn't need to ride up turn per turn, or at least it's not as punishing to not do so, and that her ride chain does nothing but add on consistency to things, she does the job pretty well. Throw in that CoCo can only run 4 copies to get to that power draw for midgame shenanigans vs Tsukuyomi having a greater chance to get one of 4 Luck Birds or Red Eyes or another Grade 3 to load up the soul and use her skill, and you basically have a card that fundamentally outclasses CoCo in practically every way. Even her skill allows for more consistencies. First of all, you've cycled 4 cards closer to that extremely dangerous stack, second, you've cycled through 4 cards in your hand to cherrypick what you get left with vs CoCo just throwing a lot of stuff at you.

How about raw advantage?

I think I've used this chart enough to not need to explain it anymore.

Turn 1: Draw (7), Ride (6)
Turn 2: Draw (7), Ride (6), Drive Check (7)
Turn 3: Draw (8), Ride (7), Lulu skill (9), CoCo skill (11), Twin Drive (13)
Extra CoCo ride (+1)

Possible cards:14

Turn 1: Draw (7), Ride (6)
Turn 2: Draw (7), Ride (6), Drive Check (7)
Turn 3: Draw (8), Ride (7), Twin Drive (9)
Superior ride (+3)
Skill (+2)

Possible cards:14

PR-0017EN.jpgBasically, both have the same possible advantage, with CoCo pulling off the higher average advantage output, but with the least amount of effect on the gamestate. Trading for that, she lacks the 11K defense to save cards. Overall, pretty even here.

Power's important right?

And it is. I'll start with this, a Tsukuyomi deck has more power than CoCo due to the existence of Tagitsuhime.

CoCo beats Tsukuyomi in outright raw attack power. 11K vs 13K, you'll need Milk in order for Tsukuyomi to reach numbers that CoCo has no issues reaching ever. However though, in those final stages of the match, Tsukuyomi far outpaces CoCo. While CoCo may be forcing out 5K shield more with its power bump, Tsukuyomi is setting up for a double trigger, essentially pushing Tsukuyomi's power (with a 7K boost) up to as high as 28K, while her rearguards also gain another 5K and the ability to break shield stage 3 (meaning they would force out 15K guard when they attack) when that stack is reached. Safe to say, or rather, kinda dangerous for people facing Tsukuyomi, Tsukuyomi has far more power than CoCo. God have mercy on the 10K Vanguard who ran out of Perfect Guards getting slammed by a 26K 2 crit Silent Tom. We also have to consider defensive advantages, as the rise of 12K attackers means the rise in access to a 20K column, meaning CoCo is put at more risk than Tsukuyomi much more of the time.

Verdict: Tsukuyomi wins.

And so, with the superior consistency and power, I declare Tsukuyomi being the superior between the 2 cards and decktypes. Post below on your views, any arguments you think I may have missed, and your own verdicts of this match up.

Well, this was actually kinda nice. Now, just got to wait until someone notices the Request Box on the side.


  1. How well does promised daughter into Tsukuyomi? She provides extra late game punch that Tagitsuhime lacks but at the expense of a card. Her presence gives the deck a better time against majesty and other 11k vg. If the deck is running draws those 5k and spare g3 make nice fuel for the ability. But the preference for most Tsukuyomi triggers is 12 crit so a little unsure how it all ties together considering tsukuyomi wants all the cards in hand it can get until it hits that stack.

    An alternative to running brakki in a sense but you still lose a card either way. But most Tsuku G2 lines ups tend to be something the lines of:
    4x Tsukuyomi G2
    4x Tom
    4x Tagitsuhime
    Nx Redeye

    So space is also an issue?

    1. Promise Daughter is a really lackluster card. I guess she can work as tech you can throw 2 of in, but should be nothing more. That, and Tagitsuhime isn't a very lackluster card...

      I always liked the idea of Brakki. Generally, Tsukuyomi would have 8 soul and by then, a single Soulblast won't affect her 6-soul support. However, like Promise Daughter, there's really not much reason to run it in actuality. It's like this, they can work, but as 'win moar' tech, not as suitable staples for the deck.

      Now these next 2 things you said are a bit off because you're assuming something beforehand. First of all, I do not agree about 12 Crit Tsukuyomi. I want to be able to use those 5K guards early on to give me a flexible early and midgame for guarding and allowing me to tank easier into the late game. Second of all, Tom loses a lot of shine to a lot of players in the Japanese meta, meaning he too is probably not going to be ran strictly at 4 as you are assuming. The point is, please don't assume things ahead of time, especially about things that aren't set in stone when it comes to deckbuilding, because there's always someone to break these rules. (5 Grade 3 Narukami)

      To answer though, a -1 during a turn when you know you'll probably bust down all the opponent's defenses at once while also gaining other benefits (Trigger Powers) is a really small thing to worry about. Tsukuyomi should be able to go off just fine and dandy with or without Promise Daughter/Brakki with all the effectiveness as guaranteed Double Triggers should be.

      And, remove the 4 Tom from that line up. Oh look, space for Red Eye

  2. I take my assumptions from the deck recipes on the jp bushiroad website (seniors division, mostly). To which yes, silent tom does occasionally get run at less numbers in part due to the prevalence of 13k, but you still see at least 3 toms in those decks. I also never did say they would be run strictly at 4, just a generic g2 list you usually see in those builds.

    Silent Tom losing alot shine amongst the JP meta is an interesting point you raise since going back to the divisions list, aside from teams builds (whose Koko and Tsuku lists seem to be wild and varied), a lot of the lists are still running tom at 3/4x. It's hardly something one would consider a loss of shine. There's a high chance set 9's new crossrides will impact upon the amount of Toms used in decks if the prevalence of 13k from that set proves too strong for Tom to keep up with but other than that, what makes you think that Tom has lost shine within the JP meta, aside from 13k vg?

    The 12 crit however, seems to be a near constant in Tsukuyomi focused builds if the recent results are anything to go by. I do prefer having a few draws myself as opposed to full on crit since I found the exact same problem of having to sacrifice 10k shields or key units as guards when a 5k draw would have sufficed in early/mid.

    Fair point on promised daughter.

    1. If you've been checking in with the Japanese, you should've noticed X4 Tsukuyomi as their only Grade 3, which kinda does give the space for upwards 15-16 Grade 2s.

      I said he loses shine, not lost it completely, so of course there would still be those who use them. Realistically speaking though, unless you really just have the space because you're abusing the ride chain mechanic, X4 Tom can cause mid game lag and can even compromise the deck's ability to fight as a whole. There's a reason why Tsukuyomi is the equivalent of a 'rogue' deck lately.

      Many takes on Tsukuyomi has been seen. Decks and their triggers will vary.

    2. More on Tom: It's all on the 13K body, really. A 26K Tom column will still be scary for a Cross-Ride, it's just not as effective as before.

  3. Couldn't agree more.

    Coco is SOOOOOOOO boring, it's just standard beatdown with no amusing gimmicks or rides or anything, hence why a lot of newbies seem to love it.

    Tsukuyomi however is awesome - super consistent and the ability to stack your deck while using cards like Misaki in the anime uses to just draw like crazy makes her a fantastic deck..........unfortunately also bloody expensive in the English meta as not only do her main cards cost a lot but Oracle cards in general like the Perfect Guard and Silent Tom also cost tonnes.

  4. could you put more accurate calculation and propabilities and what is the best way to put the cards at bot like trigger-2-1-2-trigger or smth like tha so we can control how to do this and easely renembering what did we put !!!!